Shane: Cheryl, thank you for your support of Campus Pride.   I hear you have been visiting several college campuses lately.   I think it is great that you have put so much attention toward working with young people.  

As you know, one of the most controversial issues impacting our national movement relates to the removal of transgender protections from the Employment Non-Discrimination Act (ENDA). I had recently read your Op Ed piece titled "Putting the 'T' into ENDA" published in the Washington Blade in 2004. I found it timely and provocative given that there is so much disagreement surrounding ENDA today and how to move forward with the legislation. As you know, the removal of transgender protections by U.S. Congressman Barney Frank has truly galvanized our LGBT community with UNITED ENDA (www.unitedenda.org).   Do you feel that your comments still hold true today?

Cheryl: Yes and as a matter of fact they are more relevant today because of the debate we are currently seeing in Congress and among LGBT civil rights leaders about whether and when to fight for transgender rights. The good news is that there is an incredibly strong and united group of organizations - UNITED ENDA -- which I know includes Campus Pride -- that stand firmly behind the ideal that I championed while at HRC to fight for everyone's inclusion in ENDA.   Now more than ever we should use our new found strength and acceptance to make sure we stay strong, united and don't leave anyone behind in our fight for equality.

Shane: Both you and I have a long history supporting HRC and you -- more precisely as past HRC President.   Today HRC has taken the stance of supporting an inclusive ENDA; however, HRC has also expressed that it will not advocate Congress to vote against a bill that does not include transgender protections. What is the thought process politically behind this strategy?  

Cheryl: As you may know, I served for over a decade as a State Senator in Massachusetts.   There are two schools of thought when it comes to passing legislation, work incrementally to get the kinds of protections or laws that you want passed - or push for the full law you want to see enacted.   In my experience, incrementalism is sometimes expedient but it almost always creates a less than perfect result.   Even in Massachusetts, where there is a non-discrimination law - it only protects sexual orientation.   At the time it was passed, advocates said we would go back later and deal with gender identity and expression - but it was never done. And the political reality of ENDA today is that even if the were to pass a non-inclusive bill through both branches of Congress the President has said he will veto the bill and we don't have enough votes to override that veto.   So - we will leave behind an important part of our community; create incredible heartache and ill will - all for a shallow political gain.

I know from having held office and worked with elected officials how important it is not to send mixed messages.   The best approach is to advocate whole-heartedly behind one position.   When you say to lawmakers..."we are ok with either option A or B" then you better be prepared to accept either option A or B.   Here, I believe all the advocacy groups should draw the line in the sand and say clearly and unequivocally -- We want you to support only an inclusive ENDA.

Shane: Precisely.   So, as you suggest, all LGBT and ally voices should be speaking with one voice...   I believe that is what UNITED ENDA with over 200+ LGBT and ally national and statewide organizations is doing-- including Campus Pride - but why does HRC disagree and won't commit to only support ENDA that is fully inclusive... or no ENDA at all?  

Cheryl: I recommend you ask the new President of HRC that question as he is in the best position to explain their thinking on this.

Shane: You mentioned earlier a "shallow political gain" and that really rings so true... so what is the purpose of passing a non-inclusive ENDA in the House, and possibly the Senate, if President Bush has vowed to veto it?    Are there potentially other political and financial motivations behind passing gay-inclusive legislation by Democratic Leadership?

Cheryl: There are always a host of agendas and motivations - obvious and hidden - in a legislative initiative.   I am sure it is no different with this legislative battle over ENDA.   Once again, I think the best thing our community can do is remain united and speak with a single voice that the only ENDA that is acceptable is an inclusive one.   At the end of the day - what matters most is passing legislation that fully protects each and every member of this vibrant, diverse community we work with, not a short-term political victory.

Shane: Do you find this debate over the T in ENDA damaging to our community or helpful? What do you believe is most important lessons learned from this?

Cheryl: Every civil rights battle has witnessed internal struggles over leadership, vision, and strategy.   We are no different and if we come out of this conflict united it will continue to strengthen us as a community for the next battle we face -- and sadly we have more battles to fight ahead.

Shane: Okay, this question may be a bit personal... but as the first openly gay State Senator in Massachusetts history, what is your past and current relationship with U.S. Congressman Barney Frank of the State of Massachusetts?   Youth at colleges and universities who have heard him speak about ENDA in the past have commented that he never has been really committed to transgender protections in ENDA, do you believe this?

Cheryl: I have an excellent relationship with Congressman Frank and the utmost respect for him as a human being and lawmaker. One of the things I admire the most about Congressman Frank is that his name is more than just a name -- he is indeed Frank about everything.   While I may not always agree with him, I admire that he is blunt, honest, and quite frank about his opinions.   Many politicians tell you what you want to hear, speak out of both sides of their mouths and don't stand for anything.   You can never say that about Congressman Frank and I admire that greatly.

Shane: With all this in mind, what is the best strategy to pass an inclusive-ENDA law?   Do you believe an incremental approach is best to persuade lawmakers?

Cheryl: If I thought an incremental approach would work I would certainly consider supporting it and in fact sometimes it does work with legislation.   However, in this instance I don't think incremental will be successful.   The history of passing non-discrimation legislation at the state level teaches us this because many of the non-discrimination measures passed without gender identity and expression protections have not been updated.   We cannot leave behind a core part of our community, one that is still fighting to undo the discrimination, misunderstanding and prejudice that they face.   We have made great strides in gaining public support for gays and lesbians and many have changed their hearts and minds about how they feel about accepting gay couples.   We need to continue this education work to make sure that transgender people gain the same level of acceptance and more.   If the community leaves them behind on this bill, I think it is highly unlikely that Congress will ever revisit this discussion.   Given that transgender people and people who don't fit gender norms are disproportionately impacted by employment discrimination, the gender identity and expression protections are often times the most important protections we can deliver.

Shane: Many LGBT policy makers and leaders have echoed these sentiments ... and from the perspective of college campuses and youth leaders, I know there are strong feelings toward not leaving transgender persons out of ENDA.    You might already know this, but there are currently sixty plus U.S. colleges and universities that prohibit discrimination based on gender identity and, or expression. How do you think ENDA and the transgender exclusion impacts youth today and their work on college campuses?

Cheryl: I think that it is important that older leaders of the movement show the younger generation how important it is to stay united and not to let anyone divide us in our pursuit of equality for all individuals -- including transgender people.   Young people get this and have worked hard to fight for inclusive protections -- lets not send them a message that contradicts that they are right.   An inclusive ENDA is the right leadership for them to support and witness.

Shane: Thank you, Cheryl. I think your leadership by example is right on target and a valuable lesson to not be divided in our fight for equality for LGBT Americans.    You definitely take that to heart. Thank you for letting us reprint your Op Ed piece online...I know you are very busy and we appreciate your thoughtful responses.  

OPINION EDITORAL - Washington Blade

Published:   Friday, August 13, 2004

Putting the 'T' into ENDA

HRC's board has decided not to support ENDA without transgender protections. It's the right and pragmatic thing to do.

Cheryl Jacques , President, HRC

IMAGINE YOU'RE A gay man working in a computer factory in Wisconsin. Year after year, you've been the star employee. Your exceptional productivity earned you promotion after promotion and raise after raise.

Now, there's a new boss. He doesn't like the way you gesture and the way you walk. You simply act too much like a woman, he tells your co-workers. And he says as much when he fires you and has security guards escort you out of the building.

Your lawyer is anxious to take him to court. Indeed, Wisconsin law protects an employee from being fired because of his or her sexual orientation. However, in court, the company's lawyers parade a line of lesbian and gay employees before the jury. And in each and every case, the men "act like men" and the women "act like women."

You were fired not simply because you were gay but because you didn't conform to "norms" of your gender.

The court decides in favor of your boss because Wisconsin offers no protections based on gender identity or expression. Only California, Minnesota, New Mexico, Rhode Island and the District of Columbia have laws that explicitly prohibit discrimination based on gender identity, gender expression as well as sexual orientation.

TRANSGENDER AMERICANS FACE horrific discrimination every day, just as devastating as the example of the Wisconsin factory worker. Frequently, an employee who goes through an important and life-altering gender transition is fired.

And sometimes, the harassment of transgender employees is tolerated by the boss while other forms of harassment are handled swiftly.

The bottom line is simply that neither today's employment discrimination laws nor ENDA as currently written meet the needs of protecting everyone in our community whether we're transgender, gay, lesbian or bisexual.

That's why the Human Rights Campaign has for years supported the inclusion of gender identity and gender expression in the Employment Non-Discrimination Act, a crown jewel of our community's legislative goals.

At a time when President Bush is trying to divide Americans over gay marriage, we know that unity is one of our greatest strengths.

Since joining HRC in January 2004, I've met with dozens of our community's leaders, including transgender leaders, members of Congress and other advocates in Washington and around the country to talk about ENDA.

With reintroduction expected in January 2005, I wanted to do one thing: listen.

There is broad agreement on the goal: passage of ENDA that includes sexual orientation and gender identity and expression. The question has always been about how we get there as quickly as possible and there is understandably some concern that adding gender identity or expression could delay passage of the bill.

But in this case, it's about ensuring we pass a bill with the sharpest teeth possible. Congress moves very slowly on legislation and we need to make sure the bill our allies introduce in January is as fresh and inclusive upon enactment as it was at introduction.

PASSING ENDA WITHOUT gender identity and expression is like passing a copyright law that covers books and television shows but doesn't cover digital music or videos.

But ENDA is about people's lives, not MP3s or DVDs. That's why it's so important that we have the strongest and most comprehensive bill possible.

In early August, HRC's Board of Directors took the historic step of adopting a policy that HRC would not support a version of ENDA that doesn't include gender identity or expression.

This isn't only the right thing to do; it's the pragmatic thing to do. We're supporting a modernized and comprehensive bill that gives full protection to all of our community.

Yes, they'll be more education to do and our lobbying team has been working on that for years. In fact, recent polling shows 61 percent of registered voters and 85 percent of registered GLBT voters support workplace protections for transgender people.

This is a moment of great pride not only for HRC but for our entire community. In speeches around the country, I've said that we're living in the best of times and the worst of times: historic victories and unprecedented challenges.

Cheryl Jacques is the former President of the Human Rights Campaign and a national civil rights leader who speaks nationally on issues of gay civil rights.  She is also a former Massachusetts State Senator and was the first openly gay Senator in Massachusetts.  Her and her spouse, Jennifer Chrisler who is Executive Director of the Family Equality Council, live in Massachusetts with their five year old twins.  Contact her at her website at www.cheryljacques.org.